A thought experiment about Bitwig pricing

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dellboy wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:40 pm
antic604 wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:35 am

How is it silly? It's a matter of personal preference so if anything it's subjective, not silly.
Whats the point of comparisons if its not like for like ?
What you mean? In my post they're both hobbies, so are definitely like for like. Some people spend their free time restoring old cars or building yachts, other "do" music.

What I meant is with hobby you try to maximise your enjoyment that you're getting from the activity and the cost is (often, and to a reasonable degree obviously) secondary. Let me give you an example: if I was a professional producer I would probably stick to Live because it's easier to exchange projects, there's much more resources (eg. tutorials, M4L devices), better chance to collab with someone, etc. But because I'm a hobbyist I care for none of those things - I chose a DAW purely on the merit of how much fun & inspiration I get from it. Obviously it's important whether or not my budget allows for it, but if the answer's "yes" then I don't care that there's cheaper "alternative", because it's not really an alternative with respect to my primary criteria.

It's just like with anything else that costs something - shoes, pants, phone, computer, car, house. If the extra cost justifies extra features (whatever they may be!) then it's worth it!

Apparently for a lot of people here the extra things Bitwig has are not enough to compensate for the extra cost (or some missing features), so they simply shouldn't be buying it.

It's like if I was complaining that Ferrari costs 50x the price of my current car and that the price is unfounded, because it won't take me from A to B 50x faster, that I can't put 5 persons + their luggage in it and that it gets stuck on the speed bumps on my street :D Apparently for many people it's worth the 50x price tag. I gotta go on Ferrari forums and explain to them they're stupid :)

(and no, I'm not equating Bitwig to Ferrari :))
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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antic604 wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:57 pm What you mean? In my post they're both hobbies, so are definitely like for like. Some people spend their free time restoring old cars or building yachts, other "do" music.
So whats stopping Bitwig exploiting loyal customers and bringing out a new more expensive subscription plan ?

Say they abolished the yearly upgrade plan and outright purchase of a license and started charging a monthly lease fee (lets say $25 a month)

Would you still carry on with your hobby no matter what it costs ?

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dellboy wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:40 pm
antic604 wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:35 am

How is it silly? It's a matter of personal preference so if anything it's subjective, not silly.
Whats the point of comparisons if its not like for like ?

Personally, its not about Bitwig, I like the software, but dislike their business model, so I shall not be buying. Its about the effect that their model will have on other vendors who might be tempted to follow Bitwigs lead. I own a Tracktion license and I have upgraded quite often, but now they have pretty much made it a yearly upgrade I shall pass from now on.
I’ve made the point above that Bitwig’s model is NOT unusual by any means. Lots of software vendors use exactly the same model of “what you pay for is 12 months of upgrades”.

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dellboy wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:27 pm
antic604 wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:57 pm What you mean? In my post they're both hobbies, so are definitely like for like. Some people spend their free time restoring old cars or building yachts, other "do" music.
So whats stopping Bitwig exploiting loyal customers and bringing out a new more expensive subscription plan ?

Say they abolished the yearly upgrade plan and outright purchase of a license and started charging a monthly lease fee (lets say $25 a month)

Would you still carry on with your hobby no matter what it costs ?
That’s quite the straw man argument. Bitwig will need to stay competitive, so they are not very likely to pull and “Adobe move” like that.

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Yokai wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:36 pm

Bitwig will need to stay competitive,
With Golf or Yachts ?

Or other similar competitive DAWs ?

Anyway, my point was that your "thought experiment" does not take into account the large numbers of people who buy into a hobby only to abandon it a short while later as it was not for them. Using that scenario a Bitwig purchase is guaranteed to lose a great deal of its original purchase price within 12 fixed months.

Based on that scenario one could extrapolate that the current cost is 399 euros (Bitwig website) and after a year its resell value after the plan lapses will likely be 150 euros, which works out at 20.75 euros a month.

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dellboy wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:27 pm
antic604 wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:57 pm What you mean? In my post they're both hobbies, so are definitely like for like. Some people spend their free time restoring old cars or building yachts, other "do" music.
So whats stopping Bitwig exploiting loyal customers and bringing out a new more expensive subscription plan ?

Say they abolished the yearly upgrade plan and outright purchase of a license and started charging a monthly lease fee (lets say $25 a month)

Would you still carry on with your hobby no matter what it costs ?
Antics story still holds. If your budget allows it, yes.

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dellboy wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:53 pm
Anyway, my point was that your "thought experiment" does not take into account the large numbers of people who buy into a hobby only to abandon it a short while later as it was not for them. Using that scenario a Bitwig purchase is guaranteed to lose a great deal of its original purchase price within 12 fixed months.
Yes, that is true. Hopefully, the person knows this about themselves and purchases used ;-)

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dellboy wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:27 pm
antic604 wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:57 pm What you mean? In my post they're both hobbies, so are definitely like for like. Some people spend their free time restoring old cars or building yachts, other "do" music.
So whats stopping Bitwig exploiting loyal customers and bringing out a new more expensive subscription plan ?

Say they abolished the yearly upgrade plan and outright purchase of a license and started charging a monthly lease fee (lets say $25 a month)

Would you still carry on with your hobby no matter what it costs ?
That's why I said "to a reasonable degree". Hobbies aren't always rational, but one likely crosses the line to go full-retard, to quote the classics :)
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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In my case my productivity went up quadruple since Bitwig.
Can I then compare how much it cost compare to other DAWs I used before?
It’s not just costs but also ROI
Pigments - Diva - Tal U-No-LX - Tal Sampler

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pdxindy wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:01 pm

Yes, that is true. Hopefully, the person knows this about themselves and purchases used ;-)
True, or at the very good price that I could have paid during the sale which was almost as good as used price.

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I think the Bitwig pricing model needs a little more self discipline. Twice now I purchased the upgrade when it was on sale and waited until I was ready to upgrade to activate it. For example, if you're 12 months expires but there is no new upgrade right away, just wait. I think it works out quite well if you are able to do that.

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"(and no, I'm not equating Bitwig to Ferrari :))"

Surely Bitwig is the Pagani of DAWS much more quirky than Ferrari!

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I think the main fault of Bitwig's pricing model is the naming scheme. The old fashioned Major.Minor.Patch version numbering really suggest that there has to be a major difference between 2.9.9 and 3.0.0 while in fact there is none. So if people not even get one major number in the twelve month support plan then they get angry and complain about the pricing while in fact they've gotten more features in the same time frame than most other DAWs.

Potential users look at this from the outside and see a "subscription model" that will only get them some minor bugfix updates for sure and maybe one major version upgrade in the subscription period.

Bitwig should have started at 1 and increased the number by one at every release (so 3.0 would become 11 if I counted correctly). This would make all releases equal in perception.
pdxindy wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:31 pm I think the Bitwig pricing model needs a little more self discipline. Twice now I purchased the upgrade when it was on sale and waited until I was ready to upgrade to activate it. For example, if you're 12 months expires but there is no new upgrade right away, just wait. I think it works out quite well if you are able to do that.
That's what I did. My plan expired just after 2.4 was released and I renewed my plan right after 2.5 was released. This way I got almost one and a half year of updates for my money. The new license was on sale so if it also covers 18 months of goodies then it's a really nice investment.

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Yokai wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:02 pm
telecode wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:56 pm good post. interesting comparison. now we should compare the other DAW vendors and see what the actual prices are.
Electronic music producers, Hip Hop, Pop, etc. producers don't need (nor want, really) that old-school workflow.
What are you on bruh? Pass it along.
Studio One // Bitwig // Logic Pro // Ableton // Reason // FLStudio // MPC // Force // Maschine

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apoclypse wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:14 pm
Yokai wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:02 pm
telecode wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:56 pm good post. interesting comparison. now we should compare the other DAW vendors and see what the actual prices are.
Electronic music producers, Hip Hop, Pop, etc. producers don't need (nor want, really) that old-school workflow.
What are you on bruh? Pass it along.
Very intelligent input added to the discussion. Thanks. What about what he said is so wrong? Ableton and FL Studio are pretty damn popular in those groups he mentioned. Pop probably shouldn't be in that list though.

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